**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 22 19:24:34 2001

-->	jtjm (~jtjm@m341-mp1-cvx1b.cam.ntl.com) has joined #sklyarov-uk
---	ChanServ sets mode +n 
---	ChanServ sets mode +t 
---	ChanServ sets mode +r 
---	ChanServ has changed the topic to: Meet here Wednesdays 2000 (BST) (jtjm)
---	ChanServ gives channel operator status to jtjm
-->	micky15 (tim@modem-13.anthias-fish.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #sklyarov-uk
<jtjm>	Hi
<jtjm>	Hello and good evening, similar salutations and greetings?
<micky15>	Hi. and god evening
<micky15>	I meant good evening
<jtjm>	;-)
<jtjm>	brb - just checking that everything's in place (logging etc. for the meeting tonight)
<jtjm>	Yup, that seems fine.
---	micky15 is now known as Timothy
<jtjm>	Do you still use RiscOS much?
<Timothy>	Not much, if you mean RISC OS.
<jtjm>	Yes, I probably do.
*	jtjm used to have an early RISC PC (ARM 710)
<Timothy>	I will be in London at the weekend, but can't make the demo.
<jtjm>	The demo at the weekend is in Cambridge- the London demo is on Thursday 30th
<jtjm>	While we're waiting for the others - any thoughts on where we should be going, people you know we should contact, etc, etc.?
<Timothy>	Would the support of former top ten pop group help?
<jtjm>	More than just a little bit, yes...
<jtjm>	(Caspar Bowden and I were wondering whether we would be able to find any prominent artists/authors/musicians to come out on our side when we met on Tuesday)
<Timothy>	I think chumbuwma (spelling?) would give a statement of support, and I know somebody who knows them.
<jtjm>	Sounds ideal - have you an email address I can use to keep in contact with you?
<Timothy>	Though (CAmpign for State Education) in Leeds.
<Timothy>	tim@reinhouse.freeserve.co.uk
<Timothy>	They might be to busy campigin against school closures or caplistism to do much...
<jtjm>	Well - it's probably worth contacting them anyway (one of their members might have spare time, or know someone who does...)
*	jtjm afk for 10 minutes or so - back around ten to eight
<Timothy>	I also know plenty of teachers (I puzzled why they are so many in Leeds SWP)
<--	Timothy has quit (Ping timeout: 300 seconds)
-->	matt|m (~matt@host62-7-119-47.btinternet.com) has joined #sklyarov-uk
<jtjm>	Hi
<matt|m>	Hi, noone else here yet?
<jtjm>	Timothy Badldwin turned up and then timed out after a briefish conversation
<matt|m>	right.
<jtjm>	Last week most people didn't turn up until after 8.  It seems that it's just as fashionable to be late on IRC ;-)
<matt|m>	Of course. Like the Greek traditions :-P 
<jtjm>	Greek traditions?
<matt|m>	In greece, it is good manners to arrive late.
<matt|m>	I believe.
<jtjm>	Ah  -  I see.
<jtjm>	Are you the same Matthew Macleod who has a homepage on a server in Canada?
<jtjm>	^l^L
-->	timothy (tim@modem-185.sodium.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #sklyarov-uk
<jtjm>	Hello again?
<jtjm>	(but forget the ?) - typo
<timothy>	Hello
<jtjm>	As another quick distraction while we're waiting - feel free to have a look at the new website:
<jtjm>	http://cdr.xenoclast.org
<jtjm>	It's not quite finished yet, but it should give you a feel for what it will look like.  It uses CSS, so whilst it is useable in Netscape 4.x, it doesn't look it's best (Konqueror, Galleon, or IE(spit) seem to do a pretty good job)
<--	matt|m has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
<jtjm>	I hope to push it live later today or tomorrow.
<jtjm>	sorry - make that later tomorrow or Friday - brain fart.
-->	gerry (magennisg@host217-35-25-242.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #sklyarov-uk
<jtjm>	Hi
<gerry>	Hi
<gerry>	Quiet innit
<jtjm>	Yup
<jtjm>	Was like this last week till about quarter past
<jtjm>	(By which time it was enormously busy - ahem- 5 people)
-->	matt|m (~matt@host213-122-90-102.btinternet.com) has joined #sklyarov-uk
<jtjm>	Have been in contact with Lars Gaarden of Eurorights.org - it looks like we should be able to get something going with them.
<gerry>	How was lunch with Casper?
<jtjm>	Good - just pizza in his garden, but very productive.
<jtjm>	Highlights:
<jtjm>	The FIPR are quite serious about doing another RIP-athon on copyright issues
<jtjm>	Last time round, Casper hoped to have some grassroots support for action against RIP, but it never quite materialised
<jtjm>	Thinks that co-operatively we can achieve quite a bit.
<jtjm>	I'm busy trying to find people to fill as many of the vacancies they've got going as possible.
<gerry>	Yes, I agree.  They have access to some excellent writers - their 'E-Commerce, Who carries the Risk of Fraud' paper was very accessible on a difficult subject
<gerry>	Who was the original 1 staff - is that Casper?
<jtjm>	Is keen to get some sort of lobbying organisation established in Brussels, so that in future the EU ministers have some 'advisers' who actually understand the issues without simultaneously being in the pocket of the corporates.
<jtjm>	Yup - was caspar
<jtjm>	casper even
<gerry>	Good - the FIPR adds a lot of weight to our argument, we just need to organise the activist end
<jtjm>	Ross Anderson seems to be more directly involved than the other members of the Advisory council as well
<jtjm>	Agreed absolutely.
<jtjm>	I'll give you a quick run down on what I'm working on at the moment:
<gerry>	Well, as a cryptographic researcher Ross knows the perils of this path...
<jtjm>	Yup
<jtjm>	1. Getting together a European central site for action on the EUCD (similar in broad concept to www.freesklyarov.org) - Lars Gaarden of Eurorights seems happy to do something there
<jtjm>	2. Finishing off the text for the new Campaign for Digital Rights website (preview available at http://cdr.xenoclast.org/ - currently mostly populated with stuff from the existing site)
-->	Ronan (Ronan@host213-122-195-178.btinternet.com) has joined #sklyarov-uk
<jtjm>	3. Fishing for useful contacts in all sorts of places (universities, small business, etc)
-->	DanAck (~d_a_c_k_r@212.125.68.114) has joined #sklyarov-uk
<jtjm>	4. Working on a flyer for Saturdays demo
<Ronan>	sorry i'm late - connection troubles, janek's here too
<DanAck>	Hi guys, just got IRC working for the first time.
<jtjm>	And generally, trying to work out what the best strategy is to achieve what we're after (maximum effect for minimum effort)
<jtjm>	Hi Ronan, Dan.
<jtjm>	We haven't really started yet.
<Ronan>	ok. cool...
<jtjm>	I propose that we wait five minutes - till 8:20, for any final stragglers, and then kick off in earnest.
<gerry>	Fine
<DanAck>	Cool, Julian did you say any memorable quotes to the Silicon.com person?
<matt|m>	On the effort side of things, I have a handful (read: 2) people willing to work on simple tasks.
<jtjm>	Very difficult to - she basically wanted to know if we knew why the arraignment had been postponed.
<DanAck>	that'll be a no then ?
<jtjm>	matt - fantastic - any particular skills - areas they would like to work on?
<matt|m>	None I am afraid. Just general work.... begging to be involved :) I mean in things like leafletting
<jtjm>	Dan - I told her that no-one knew at present, and promised to send her details as soon as we heard, and let her know that we were beginning to form up to counter the EUCD - also told her about the Cambridge and London events coming up.
<jtjm>	Excellent - where are you based?
<timothy>	I'm willing to organise things at the Unversity of Leeds.
<jtjm>	Tim - great - when do your lot come back for the next term?
<matt|m>	I am about 20 minutes from Edinburgh
*	Ronan is in Edinburgh
<jtjm>	Matt - do you know Ronan?
<Ronan>	matt: we should meet up
<timothy>	I still haven't looked that up, anyhow a might be a bit busy discouraging people from joining the "Free Speech" Society.
<matt|m>	I don't, now I do. Hello Ronan.
<Ronan>	I don't believe we know each other... hello Matt
<jtjm>	Discouraging people?  What's wrong with this Free Speech society?
<timothy>	Its a neo-nazt front.
<timothy>	I meant neo-nazi
<jtjm>	Oh dear.  They're not exactly synonymous, are they?
<Ronan>	Matt: did you get my private message? (about exact locations, etc...)
<jtjm>	In any event - I was planning to leave the action at Universities till after Fresher's week had been and gone, to give people a chance to approach things in a more sensible light.
<jtjm>	s/sensible/sober/ ;-)
<jtjm>	Ok - let's run through the Agenda briefly (although none of the Cambridge crowd appear to be here, grr...)
<timothy>	Actually that would be missed opputunity (freshers week).
<jtjm>	Maybe- my own experience of fresher's week is that people sign up for a hundred and ten random societies, and end up going along to about two.
<jtjm>	But I'm entirely open to criticism on that one.  
<jtjm>	Ok - quickly through the Agenda, and then on to other bits and bobs:
<Ronan>	I'm not sure it would be possible to take part in the societies fair anyhow, without a child-organisation...
<Ronan>	sorry, carry on Julian...
*	jtjm will resume Fresher's fair discussion in AOB
<jtjm>	1. Cambridge event - Saturday 25th 
<jtjm>	Firstly - anyone here able to make it?  (1300)
*	jtjm can
<timothy>	I can't
<gerry>	I can't
*	jtjm notes that several who were here last week could also but have since disappeared off face of planet
<DanAck>	I will
*	jtjm will kick them
<jtjm>	I will be writing a flyer tomorrow.
<jtjm>	Dan - great.  I'm pretty certain we can get five or six together
<jtjm>	Dan - would you be able to bring just a couple of your placards as backdrops?
<DanAck>	Cool, I could do with some more practice of talking to people.
<DanAck>	Placards - yes...I might make a couple more with more focused messages.
<jtjm>	Ok - I'll publish details of maps, meeting places, etc.  There are numerous good pubs to retire to afterwards
<jtjm>	Dan - excellent - if you need a contribution towards cost of making them, just let me know.
<jtjm>	Ok - Cambridge Event will go ahead as planned - Dan to bring a couple of placards, me to write a flyer, and kick arses of Cambridge crowd to make sure they attend.
<jtjm>	2. London protest 30 August
<jtjm>	30 August is a Thursday - this coincides with numerous protests being held in the States on the same day.
<jtjm>	Theme - essentially Pro-Dmitry (as far as banners, placards etc. go) - leaflets should ideally discuss DMCA and provide a lead in to the EUCD issues (concentrating on former rather than latter)
-->	HuskyDog (~rs@pc2-farn2-0-cust133.gui.cable.ntl.com) has joined #sklyarov-uk
<jtjm>	Hi
<jtjm>	We've just moved on to discussing 30 August protest 
<jtjm>	. London protest 30 August
<jtjm>	<jtjm> 30 August is a Thursday - this coincides with numerous protests being held in the States on the same day.
<jtjm>	<jtjm> Theme - essentially Pro-Dmitry (as far as banners, placards etc. go) - leaflets should ideally discuss DMCA and provide a lead in to the EUCD issues (concentrating on former rather than latter)
<HuskyDog>	Sorry I'm late.  I've never used IRC before, so the last 45 mins has been a bit of a trial :-)
<jtjm>	Do people agree that this is the right thing to be doing?
>huskydog<	- no problem 
-->	mk270 (~mk270@pc2-camb6-0-cust74.cam.cable.ntl.com) has joined #sklyarov-uk
---	ChanServ gives channel operator status to mk270
<HuskyDog>	Sounds good to me.  My Boss seems OK to give me the time off.
<jtjm>	Great - who else can attend?
<gerry>	I can
<DanAck>	Unfortunately I may not be able to take time off work for the 30th :(. We're meant to be delivering a wholeload of code that day
<jtjm>	Ok.
-->	philh (~philh@modem-719.ballistic.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #sklyarov-uk
<philh>	hi everyone
<jtjm>	That raises an important issue - timing: lunchtime again?
>phil<	- hi
<DanAck>	Where were you thinking of doing the protest ?
<HuskyDog>	I can probably make it by 1pm.
<jtjm>	(This gives people a chance to pop out from work for an hour if they are able) - For recent arrivals - discussing London Protest on 30 August - suggest kickoff at 1230
<jtjm>	Opposite US Embassy?
<jtjm>	Ok - gather 1245-1315 - arrive Embassy at 1330?
<DanAck>	Do you think they can take any more signing ?
<jtjm>	Any more signing?
<DanAck>	signing = singing
<jtjm>	;-) I don't know
<HuskyDog>	Do you want to do the play again? (I was 'A' last time)
<DanAck>	If we prepare a letter to give to the embassy ahead of time, we could each collect signatures before the day.
<gerry>	Did anyone record the DMCA song last time?  I would like to see something like a 'Free Dmitry' CD with content that could make it into some mainstream reporting
<mk270>	if people are doing any singing they should remmeber Dave Green's advice to do it up a tone
<jtjm>	Possibly - hang on a mo, though.  Quick vote - US Embassy is the right place to hold 30 August protest?  Anyone not in favour say so (30 seconds for vote)
<mk270>	gerry: the DMCA song has weak words .. i'd recommend getting better words before a recording
<jtjm>	FIne - US Embassy it is.
<jtjm>	Gerry - Free Dmitry CD (ideally multimedia thing with background info, press articles, etc) would be a very good idea.
<jtjm>	Anyone know somewhere that does those CD business card thingies?
<jtjm>	(And anyone know what it costs to get a few hundred run off?)
<mk270>	jtjm: Matthew Lavy knows about them.. he has some
<HuskyDog>	Don't we need to find someone who can sing first!!
<mk270>	jtjm: in fact i think there's one here on the floor between us
<jtjm>	We've got most of Jesus College Choir available in Cambridge if we want to do a a decent job
<jtjm>	;-)
<gerry>	This is one of the defining moments of the Digital Age (well, hyperbole gets you everywhere), so we could peddle the 'Historic' end of having a copy
<gerry>	Viral marketing
<jtjm>	Like it.  Anyone here a cartoonist or know one?  
<mk270>	i know one
<gerry>	I have a friend in the states, might help if we have a strong image we want
<jtjm>	Excellent - will followup with both of you afterwards (have your email addresses)
<HuskyDog>	Serious question:  What about the Russian embassy?  Is there any milage in dropping in some sort of letter of support?  Does the Russian government care about Dmitry at all?
<mk270>	not the Russian embassy in the UK
<jtjm>	Good question - don't know the answer.  We know that the Russian Consulate visited Dmitry, but I don't know whether they've escalated the issue at all.
<mk270>	it's probably against some diplomatic protocol for the russian embassy in the UK to get involved in a US criminal case
<jtjm>	Yes - but it's not unknown for messages to be passed via Embassies to Russia and back down by some other route.
<mk270>	question.... where on the web is there a good resource on the timeline for the sklyarov case in the courts?
<jtjm>	Anyway- to get back on topic briefly
<HuskyDog>	Agreed, but presumably the embassy here is supposed to report UK opinion back to Moscow?
<jtjm>	Protest on 30 August will be advertised meeting 1245-1315 at Hyde Park Corner - proceeding to Embassy for 1330.  Any dissent?
<mk270>	not really
<gerry>	No
<mk270>	that "not really" was to huskydog
<jtjm>	Great - will advertise that.  Will arrange production of leaflets, etc, via list.
<jtjm>	Ok - back to AOB.
<jtjm>	On the viral marketing them - T-Shirts...
<jtjm>	s/them/theme/
<matt|m>	Good idea.
<gerry>	Great idea
<jtjm>	We need someone to come up with a catchy design, and somewhere to print them
<jtjm>	Any volunteers...?
<mk270>	talking t's on magdelen st
<mk270>	JCN tshirts were done there
<mk270>	"Mummy, why are they taking our VCR?"
<jtjm>	Ok - design then.  I assume you are all in favour of the Campaign for Digital Rights direction I intend to start taking publically shortly (ie. concentrating on EUCD)?
<gerry>	Yup, good name
<gerry>	Actually, was it picked as CD-R? :-)
<jtjm>	;-)
<gerry>	LOL
<jtjm>	That was accidental, rather than deliberate ;-) 
<gerry>	Hey, we're sponsored on every CD media you buy!
<jtjm>	hehehe
<jtjm>	How long before someone hits us with a trademark infringement suit... ;-)
<jtjm>	Anyway - these cartoonists the two of you know - are they people who 'get it' figuratively?
<mk270>	"YOu are not allowed to read this T Shirt"
<gerry>	I could describe the situation and see what he can come up with
<mk270>	no.. my cartoonist acquaintance is one of the most loosely attached people i know
<jtjm>	gerry - great - would be v. grateful if you could.
<gerry>	OK - Done
<jtjm>	While we've got people here - quick brainstorm on t-shirt/banner ideas-
<matt|m>	hmm. Perhaps a statement at the top... this daya has been recorded on a T-shirt. You may not copy, photograph or read it aloud.
<jtjm>	(This is all being logged, will write it up tomorrow)
<matt|m>	s/daya/data/
<philh>	we've already got "for a world where users have rights too"
<timothy>	Too ambigous on it's own, drug users?
<jtjm>	Yup - good tagline - but need a snappy attention grabber...
<HuskyDog>	How about some backward writing with "This T-shirt is encypted", like the plackard we had last time?
<jtjm>	HD - not a bad one.
<mk270>	i was aiming for that, with the "you are not allowed to read this t shirt" thing
<jtjm>	(basically just looking for as many different ideas as possible at the moment).
<matt|m>	that may make a good idea for some fliers too. A title backwards like that, then going on to explain the meaning of it.
<HuskyDog>	Pay to view.  Pay to listen.  Pay to read.
<timothy>	Without context "This T-shirt is encypted" doesn't get at the issue.
<DanAck>	"DAER SIHT TRIHS - GO TO JAIL
<jtjm>	Just a thought - anyone know of an equivalent to thinkgeek in the UK (somewhere we could actually sell these things to pay for the cost of printing them, burning CD business cards, printing flyers, etc)?
<timothy>	That's better
<mk270>	i like that DEAR SHIT TRISH thing
<timothy>	I seee a problem with that.
<philh>	me too
<DanAck>	It would definitely get noticed.
<jtjm>	;-)
<timothy>	But misunderstood
<jtjm>	Maybe.
*	jtjm proposes a five minute break
<DanAck>	We could do with some snappy slogans about the EUCD
<jtjm>	Dan - agreed.
<HuskyDog>	Fine, I could use the time to figure out what all these other buttons on X-Chat do :-)
<mk270>	EUCD means NO CD
<timothy>	And not many know what EUCD is.
<matt|m>	That seems to be a problem, we really need to elaborate, but there isnt space on a tshirt. unless you want to get real close.
<mk270>	DON'T TAKE OUR VCRS
<timothy>	I think "you are not allowed to read this t shirt" is the best suggestion so far.
<mk270>	cheers ;)
<mk270>	though we need something on it that you're not allowed to read, as has been pointed out
*	jtjm thinks there may be the opportunity to do more than one design
<DanAck>	Was anyone able to read the EUCD document ? Whenever I tried to read it my eyes kept losing focus...
*	Ronan had a go, but gave up
<philh>	the EUCD is hard to understand, IMO
<matt|m>	It scared me. I thoguht soe parts were in latin :)
<jtjm>	also - on the subject of having to get close - you can have something obvious on the front, and detail on the back  (these things tend to get read in pubs and lecture theatres, as well as on the streets)
<mk270>	we need really to look at the implementation legislation for the UK as well
<HuskyDog>	Isn't reading legal documents FIPR's area of expertise?  Can they provide us with a executive summary?
<jtjm>	It is - and they will given time
<timothy>	How about DeCSS source code, stating "This shirt is illegal in the USA and possibly here soon..", no need to understand DeCSS to get the point.
<jtjm>	In the meantime, there's no harm in doing our check up on it.  www.eurorights.org, and the eurorights mailing list has done a lot of work on this already.
<jtjm>	Quick one - does anyone have any objections to my publishing the unexpurgated log of tonight as I did last week?
<matt|m>	timothy: good, i like :)
<timothy>	no
<matt|m>	no.
<philh>	no
<gerry>	no
<DanAck>	tim - there is a tshirt like that on sale (I have one) - will find the url...
<HuskyDog>	We need different messages for different groups.  99.9% of people don't write code, so a T-shirt pointing out its potential illegality won't concern them.  OTOH if you are sitting in a C programming lecture, the guy reading your back may well be very interested!
<jtjm>	HD - yup - good point
<HuskyDog>	I wishn
<HuskyDog>	N
<timothy>	I thinking about just the ilegality of it would be the point.
<jtjm>	Does anyone else have the time to organise T shirt production?
-->	Ronan2 (Ronan@host213-122-198-106.btinternet.com) has joined #sklyarov-uk
<HuskyDog>	I wish there had been interesting T-shirts to read when I was a student dozing through lectures :-)
<DanAck>	TSHIRT = http://www.copyleft.net/item.phtml?&page=product_1175_front.phtml 
<mk270>	tshirt idea:
<DanAck>	I got one sent to me here in UK - I think breaking the law.
<matt|m>	coulp we perhaps carry that idea to musicon tshirts? (illegality)
<mk270>	first they came for the CDs, but I didn't speak up cause i had no CD; then they came for the VCRs, but I didn't speak up, for I had no VCR, then they came for the compilers (etc)
<--	HuskyDog has quit (Connection reset by peer)
<--	Ronan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
<jtjm>	mk270 - Nice idea.
-->	rs (~rs@pc2-farn2-0-cust133.gui.cable.ntl.com) has joined #sklyarov-uk
<timothy>	The ANL has a simular T-shirt
<DanAck>	ANL ?
<gerry>	I like it too - has a nice historic ring to it and everyone gets a something that they are interested in keeping
<timothy>	Anit-Nazi League
<timothy>	A direct quote.
<jtjm>	Hmm.  That's not necessarily a problem, surely?
<--	rs has quit (Quit: [x]chat)
<timothy>	I'll run it past some members to see what there opinion is.
<DanAck>	I've got to go in a bit - shall we talk about what to do for the protest on the 30th ?
<jtjm>	Dan - yes
-->	HuskyDog (~rs@pc2-farn2-0-cust133.gui.cable.ntl.com) has joined #sklyarov-uk
<jtjm>	Ok - things that need to be done for 30th:
<jtjm>	Press releases - I'll handle those
-mk270-	OBEY OBEY OBEY
<jtjm>	Leaflets  - Jason and I working on some - since this is pro-dmitry, some of the existing ones can be re-used
<jtjm>	Banners and Placards
<HuskyDog>	Police?
<mk270>	ideally we'd have Boyle on the DMCA not Schneier
<jtjm>	Yup
<mk270>	(the man on the Clapham omnibus has heard of neither)
<DanAck>	Police - yep need to be contacted, I can do that.
*	jtjm suspects Martin is being irrelevant again
<mk270>	no
<mk270>	it doesn't lose us anything to use Boyle rather than Schneier
<timothy>	I have a couple of placards from the last protest that I could bring to London on Friday.
<mk270>	placard == leaflet ?
<mk270>	sorry, i had thought they were the same, hance the comment on schneier
<DanAck>	Placards - I have plenty of wood left over, and large tough cardboard. Could make some more up. Though could do with help ?
---	Disconnected ().
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Aug 22 21:23:15 2001

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 22 21:24:02 2001

-->	jtjm (~jtjm@m324-mp1-cvx1b.cam.ntl.com) has joined #sklyarov-uk
---	Topic for #sklyarov-uk is Meet here Wednesdays 2000 (BST)
---	Topic for #sklyarov-uk set by jtjm at Mon Aug 20 19:42:10 2001
---	ChanServ gives channel operator status to jtjm
-->	mk270a (~mk270@pc2-camb6-0-cust74.cam.cable.ntl.com) has joined #sklyarov-uk
<mk270a>	grrr
<--	mk270 has quit (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by mk270a)))
---	mk270a is now known as mk270
<jtjm>	Martin has explained his Boyle- schneier comment - basically James Boyle has a very nice commentary on the DMCA and similar legislation - we could do with that on a flyer
<jtjm>	Martin - can you look it up and send me the details?
<mk270>	boyle is a law professor cum standup comic who hates the DMCA :)
<jtjm>	(apologies for disappearance - NTL drops the connection every 2 hours)
<mk270>	sure
<DanAck>	Jtjm did Anton send you a scan of the letter he got back from the Embassy ?
<mk270>	i was expecting to have to get him to write it actually, but we could ask permission to use one of his existing pieces
<jtjm>	the latter would probably be easier.
<DanAck>	Jtjm - did Anton send you a scan of the letter he got back from the Embassy ?
<jtjm>	Dan - did you get any volunteers to help you with Placards?
<HuskyDog>	Where is Dan?
>Dan<	Not sure - he sent me an email - may have had an attachment - will have to go back and check
<DanAck>	no volunteers yet. Location = London - Earls court area
<jtjm>	London - about 6 stops down from Hyde Park corner on the Picadilly line?
<DanAck>	yep - about 20 minutes down line
<DanAck>	If we had access to A3 printer that is probably the best way to make placards.
<philh>	DanAck: what help do you need with the placards?
<DanAck>	Process = 1) Cut wood peices 2) File down one end for comfortable holding 3) Design placard 4)Draw/print design onto large peice of card/paper
<HuskyDog>	I have an A3 inkjet.  Its a bit slow, but if someone sends PS or PDF in time I can print some out.
<DanAck>	5)Cut out tough brown card same size as 4) 6)Glue all together.
<DanAck>	No single part takes a long time, (except if your saw is blunt) but if making ten placards, time adds up.
<jtjm>	HD - where are you based? (Guilford?)
<HuskyDog>	Farnborough
<timothy>	Selby, east of Leeds
<mk270>	Selby, south of York, surely? ;)
<timothy>	Yes
<mk270>	"The House of Hell? This doesn't look like a two up two down in Selby!"
<mk270>	 -- a Xmas panto I heard in York once
<DanAck>	Jtjm - did Anton send you a scan of the letter he got back from the Embassy ?
<timothy>	I am near selby, not in it.
<mk270>	good
>DanAck<	Not sure - he sent me an email - may have had an attachment - will have to go back and check
>DanAck<	- sorry tried to send that to you via private Dialog
<HuskyDog>	Do we have any sort of budget for getting proper banners printed?
<jtjm>	Not at present.
*	jtjm is prepared to chip in some cash, though
<jtjm>	How much does a banner cost?
<timothy>	Do we have a treasurer?
<HuskyDog>	Obviously I could make a small donation.  I have got them done in the past for a local drama group.  IIRC about 50 to 100 quid each.
<jtjm>	Nope - we don't have a treasurer, bank account, or any official funds yet.
<timothy>	I would call that a large donation.
<jtjm>	I can throw in about 25-50 quid, probably (rushes off to check bank statements)
<timothy>	5 quid from me
<HuskyDog>	Probably only worth while wiith a REALY good slogan and we would have to be sure that there would be plenty of opportunities to use it.
<matt|m>	tenner from me.
<HuskyDog>	10 from me.
<philh>	i can bung in 20
<HuskyDog>	Oh dear!  Now we need a treasuurer :-(
<philh>	volunteering?
<HuskyDog>	Umm, need to think about that!
<jtjm>	Ok - well, it seems like it would be sensible to set up a bank account, and find ourselves a treasurer.  The donations might be used in the first instance to cover the cost of flyer copying and similar- leave large expenses till we've got a bit more cash.
*	matt|m has to run
<jtjm>	Matt - ok - logs of rest of conversation will go up later tonight/first thing tomorrow.  Thanks for ideas, etc.
<gerry>	Sorry - been away.  DanAck - I can help with the placards as I'm London.  The best way to get A3 is just print A4 + Photocopy up to A3 - cheapest
<matt|m>	Sure. I will check the log.
<matt|m>	see you later
<--	matt|m has quit (Quit: [BX] Occifer, take me drunk, I'm home)
<DanAck>	Cheers gerry - yeah and could do colour like that as well...
<gerry>	DanAck - I'll mail you my contact details later
<DanAck>	cool
<DanAck>	I must leave soon as well - any more ideas about what to do for protest 30th ?
<HuskyDog>	An A3 looks very small on a plackard.  Need to stick 2 or even 4 together.
<Ronan2>	Is it worth having another Edinburgh 'protest' on the 30th too?
<jtjm>	Ronan - Yes, if you can get people to do it.
<jtjm>	More ideas for 30th - 
<jtjm>	Would be good to have a selection of chants prepared in advance.  Maybe also a "different ways to approach the public when leafletting" section on the website
<jtjm>	Have we any seasoned activists or protesters here?
<timothy>	Yes
<timothy>	Of about 2 years
<jtjm>	Ah - excellent.  Any ideas/thoughts on effective protesting (within the law)?
<DanAck>	We (I) could do with advice on how to approach people...
<DanAck>	I must go - have spent 36 hours at work so far this week - and is only wednesday
<jtjm>	Yup - I'll try to pull together the various bits of advice that turned up on the thread on the mailing list 
<--	DanAck (~d_a_c_k_r@212.125.68.114) has left #sklyarov-uk
<timothy>	Give notice of protests well in advance (a few weeks).
<jtjm>	Yup
<Ronan2>	I won't go ahead with an Edinburgh protest until enough people state their intention of coming along...
<Ronan2>	And I suspect that it would be mainly leafleting...
<jtjm>	The leafletting aspect is one of the most effective parts of what we're doing. 
<--	mk270 has quit (Client exited)
<Ronan2>	Agreed, but it doesn't look so impressive ;)
<gerry>	I agree - fundamentally we are looking to educate people on the traditional rights they are about to lose - the tilting in the copyright balance towards the distributors
<jtjm>	Ronan - if you can email those that attended last time, plus any others in Scotland, eg. Matt (send an email to the mailing list as well), you might be able to get enough together to make it worth announcing
<HuskyDog>	I haven't eaten yet so cheers!
<gerry>	Can we get James Boyle to wave his copyright on the lecture so we could put it on a Free Dmitry CD?
<jtjm>	And once you've announced it, you'll find people turning up that you didn't even know about (going by the London Protest)
<timothy>	Hold hands if you get attacked by police, but I don't think it is relevant. here. ( I've forgetten the counter mearsure to tear gas).
<jtjm>	It also makes good news to be able to say "Protests in London and Edinburgh"...
<--	HuskyDog (~rs@pc2-farn2-0-cust133.gui.cable.ntl.com) has left #sklyarov-uk
<jtjm>	Gerry - I can get in contact with him and ask - I'm sure he won't be averse..
<Ronan2>	jtjm: Sure, I'll try and round up the usual suspects, and we'll see how many will commit to coming along.
<timothy>	But the best advice on protests I can give is to ignore the law (possibly save formalities).
<timothy>	I'll go now
<--	timothy (tim@modem-185.sodium.dialup.pol.co.uk) has left #sklyarov-uk
<jtjm>	Ah - pity he disappeared at that point
<jtjm>	For reference, my own opinion is that there's not a lot to be gained from ignoring the law, and potentially a lot to be lost.
*	jtjm plus, I have much much better things to do with my time than wasting any of it hanging around in a police cell on some trivial charge of breaching the peace, or whatever.
<gerry>	Agreed - we can make our point and motivate people better without needing to break anything
<jtjm>	Exactly.  The protests (and any other public actions have two purposes) - recruit support, and attract media interest, so that the FIPR can step in and kick off some informed debate.
<jtjm>	Anyway - I'm about ready to wrap up - anything else before I go
<philh>	there's little to be gained from breaking the law, i think
<jtjm>	and the last thing we want to do is be portrayed in the media as yet another bunch of anti-capitalism types.
<jtjm>	Ok - thanks all - was v. productive again.  Summary to follow tomorrow
<gerry>	Cheers
<Ronan2>	:)
<Ronan2>	Let's say the Edinburgh protest is tentatively announced...
<Ronan2>	will you put that on the website?
<jtjm>	Ronan - yup
<Ronan2>	cool, see you later..
<--	Ronan2 (Ronan@host213-122-198-106.btinternet.com) has left #sklyarov-uk
<--	gerry (magennisg@host217-35-25-242.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has left #sklyarov-uk
<--	philh (~philh@modem-719.ballistic.dialup.pol.co.uk) has left #sklyarov-uk
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Aug 22 22:11:39 2001